The Autumn Equinox is approaching, a powerful time in the pagan calendar and an active time for the ancient powers emanating in and around Barrow Hill. To celebrate the Equinox, both games are on sale with 80% off on Steam. (Offer ends 24 September 2018)
Barrow Hill: Curse of the Ancient Circle Somewhere deep within the woods of Cornwall, a timeless force is stirring. Unseen beneath the ancient burial mound, known locally as Barrow Hill, a forgotten myth awakens. Use archaeology to discover that the barrow is more than just a collection of forgotten standing stones.
Barrow Hill: The Dark Path Follow the Dark Path into a world of Druidic lore and Celtic myths. It is the Autumn Equinox on Barrow Hill, a time of great power, when the ancient standing stones are at their most powerful and dangerous. You have one night to make the offerings, follow the Dark Path
Great to see my model of the Tintagel building complex on tonight’s BBC documentary - King Arthur's Britain: The Truth Unearthed
"exciting new archaeological discoveries to decode the myths and medieval fake news, piecing together a very different story of this turning point in Britain's history. The story begins with exclusive access to the excavations of an unprecedented stone palace complex on the Tintagel peninsula in Cornwall. Long known to have been a Dark Age settlement the new evidence reveals that Tintagel was also a seat of power, but who ruled there? The rocky outcrop has mythical connections with the legendary King Arthur"
Check out the new WebCam! An eye in the sky, with views over East and West Looe. Tune in day and night, as the camera runs 24/7 with views looking out across Looe bay to Rame head.
Glastonbury - A Waking Dream Of Avalon - Work In Progress
There's some excellent Solstice weather outside the window, and some nice virtual Solstice weather to replicate on the screen. A few free hours proved useful this weekend, to learn the ins-and-outs of plant and tree generation in Unity. A lot of assets and off the peg 3d items come pre-bundled as environments, but I wanted some native flora, especially if specific plants are required for some of the esoteric puzzles.
Making quick bits of 3D Mesh Shape for using as plants parts.
.
Cow Parsley is a tricky one, at it has a 3d quality that doesn't work well with billboards (flat plants, in scenes, like grass), and Everyone's Gone to the Rapture has a lovely example in the field scenes. So, it was a good challenge to see what can be done, with little or no experience. There were a few photos to edit, for the textures. I photographed the plants around the Tor a couple of years back, so I used what I had. It's mostly flower head and leaf, that make up the plant, so benefited from a quick 3D surface, to add shape. Mapping the photos onto the models was easy, so it was over to Unity.
Fun with the Tree Tool in Unity
After setting the trunk shape, it was a case of distributing the foliage (branch groups). With a bit of tweaking and experimentation, I got the flower heads up top, and a naturalistic look to the leaves. One of the cool things about 3D, and tree creation, is infinite variation.
Lots of variations, just like nature.
I really like the fact that the Glastonbury plants are used directly in a virtual world, and animate with the wind, take shadows and dappled light and LOD themselves out of existence when I don't need them.
Flora and Fauna of a narrow Glastonbury lane
Photographing flowers, large and small, for use as textures, when creating 3D versions. Getting plants right will prove important, not just in Glastonbury, but during historical and archaeological reconstruction projects later in the year. Basically, representing places in realistic detail, from flora to fauna and climate.
Just add butterflies...
Hedgerows as I remember them, before the industrial trimmer. They bounce and move quite nicely, in various weathers and wind directions, which is perfect for later on. A lot of the weather effects have been made possible by the Enviro system, combined with Unity, to allow loads of customisation. We're looking to recreate the feeling of Summer Solstice, when the day is long and the shadows disappear at mid day.
We filmed a nice little video, on the recent Solstice, in the valleys between Duloe and Looe. I was buzzing with bugs, birds and life, so felt like a perfect opportunity to capture some of the (slow motion) action. If we can get our hot summer days feeling like the video I'll be more than pleased.
The countryside around Wick Hollow Hall
Creating small, low detail houses, was fun. They are for use in the distant background of the scenes, to suggest the wider Glastonbury landscape. There has already been interest as to whether any will feature as haunted houses, but there just detail, for the wider vista. The main location, a closed down museum, is where most of the interior action will take place. A Night at the Museum, as it were. There's a temptation to feature a bit of the famous Music Festival later down the line, as well as a few ruins of the old Abbey.
LOD Houses for distant horizons, Glastonbury
The opposite of creating the Train Set style houses is creating the interior and exterior walls for Wick Hollow Hall. It's a late 16th Century build, using the local sandstone. Sadly only a few sand stone buildings survive, in Glastonbury, with the pub on the High Street being a fine example, if you ever visit. We captured all sorts of bits while we were there, including windows, doors and archways. The plan was to create a series of modules, with nice natural detail and interesting stone work. There's a lot of iron in the stone around the Tor, which gives some of the stones some variation.
Wall texture set for Wick Hollow Hall
Again, a bit like a train set, we put together the pieces, working out what was required to build the house, from structure to chimneys. It's fun, as in a way, it's got a bit of Glastonbury DNA in the game content, rather than RandOomStoneWall2. If I'm honest, I wouldn't be that interested in a project if it didn't have some connection to the real world. It makes it more fun to produce.
Initial modules for Wick Hollow Hall
Quite a few new monuments were added to the main level, with some bits of Grammetry being ushered into use. This old planter well was captured at Luton Hoo, a few years ago. That's my Nanna and Mum in the background, ha ha. Hello Nanna!
Old stone planter at Luton Hoo, and Nanna! ;-)
I'm really pleased with the results, with lighting and realistic shadows helping to blend the look. Monuments: statues, urns, plaques are everywhere around us, here in Cornwall and beyond, so there's a great opportunity to use some of it! I draw the line at using peoples grave stones, as it's a bit much, but statuary and stonework make excellent game objects. I can't wait to make them puzzles! ;-)
I've been watching quite a few space documentaries this week, in the background. It's a mind expanding subject, and something that's interested me alongside my fascination with stones circles. Most people know that Stone Henge has something to do with the Solstice, as they see it on the news, but most megalithic sites can be attached to some celestial event or solar/lunar activity. It's ironic that they had to relearn alot of this stuff back in the 'Age of Discovery', and some lost their heads as a result. But, that stuff is reserved for the museum displays, probably with an animating little model to cut off the heads of the blasphemers!! I do like a museum with models. ;-)
So, with another weekend drawing to close, it's back to the job by Saxton shore. For now, here's a pic of my Cow Parsley in the sunset by Glastonbury Tor. I'm really pleased with it, so I look forward to seeing waht else can be achieved with a few hours in Unity.
The longer daysare proving fruitful, with plenty of activity at Shadow Tor. I've been getting
back to Blackenrock a lot, which is good. After staring at data and collating
data chunks for photogrammetry, it's good to be doing somethinga bit more arty. There's nothing wrong with
science data, but I did miss the Saxton world a bit. I play a couple of
characters in the game, Professor Hardacre (a bossy archaeologist, now
deceased) and the Station Master. It'll be great to finally get this one
finished.
Station Master and Hardacre are waiting, so we're busy busy busy...
Blackenrock is likely to be the last 2D WinterMute Engine
game from us, as we move into more advanced productions. We've been conducting
all sorts of experiments to see what's possible, and what's downright
impossible! One experimental hobby project has grown and grown since a fateful visit
to Glastonbury a couple of years back.
We wanted to learn the basics of Unity, but thought a
worthwhile effort would be to build a neat square mile of countryside. Roughly the size of the Barrow Hill games so far.
“O Isle of Apples; truly fortunate,
Where unforced fruit, and willing comforts meet;
For there the fields require no rustic hand,
But Nature only cultivates the
land:
The fertile plains with corn and
herds are proud,
And golden apples smile in every
wood.”
We both settled on the Vale of Avalon (the fields around
Glastonbury Tor), after realising that wide open spaces and tons of kinetic
wildlife are now a lot easier for us to accomplish. Complicated, but much
easier. So, we've been adding bits as we go along, usually at night, or rainy
weekends. It certainly brightens the soul a little.
Why Glastonbury? Loads of myths, stories, theories, genuine
weird things, biblical connections, alchemy, Dunstan, Avalon, King Arthur etc
etc... the list could go on. So, here's some scenes from the project, now
entitled: Glastonbury - Waking Dream of Avalon. I'm calling it 'A Midlife
Mystery', in secret. Here are some scenes from around the game world, a corner
of countryside known as Wick Hollow Hall.
If it all sounds New Age and weird, that's because it is.
Glastonbury is a place of atmosphere and complicated pseudoscientific theories
that both fascinate and frustrate, so many are really 'out there', while others
offer divine knowledge, wrapped up in indecipherable code and enigma. Perfect
material needed for a landscape based adventure game, aimed at gamers who
aren't afraid of a vegan sausage roll and a rainbow unicorn. ;-)
It's a place of pilgrimage,for those seeking esoteric power, earth energies, spirituality, leylines
and, of course, the Music Festival. But why? What makes Glastonbury, and the
land around the Tor so special?
Here's a few famous facts and fantasies about Glastonbury: Fact or Faked? You Decide.
King Arthur -
As well as Tintagel, and a scattering of other
locations including Edinburgh(!), Glastonbury has strong ties to Arthurian
legend. In the 13thC the monks at the Abbey had noticed a massive drop in
revenue at the tills, realising that the newly built Westminster Abbey had
pinched all the pilgrims who couldn't be bothered to ride/walk/flap to
Glastonbury. So, it was with some noise that they announced they had found the
bodies of King Arthur and Guinevere, entombed together in an almighty tree
trunk 'coffin'. The religious tourists came flocking backing in no time, never
in the numbers they once did, but certainly it's most popular period, providing
more inspiration to the already popular Arthur myth.
I like to think the monks really did find the tree coffin,
with the bodies, as a myth often begins from a grain of truth, and they did
need something to show people, who quite rightly asked 'Are you sure that's
King Ar'fer?' So, who were they? The couple inside the tree trunk? It's good
food for thought.
The Vale of Avalon is where Arthur took his big prize, The
Holy Grail, and buried it beneath the Tor, like some sort of naturally
occurring pyramid tomb. See the next bit, Joseph of Arimathea for more.
Joseph of Arimathea -
Quick pinch of salt? Yes? Good. The
biblical great uncle of Jesus Christ, Joseph pops up in myths all over Cornwall
and the West Country. Here in Looe, Joseph is said to have left Jesus to play
on Looe Island, while he travelled to the tin mines to barter exchange prices.
Funny
thing is, there are sites of
two early Chapels in Looe, on the mainland and one on St.George's Island, both
under the wing of Glastonbury Abbey at the time. But that's an idea for another
game! ;-)
Later, Joseph left the Holy Land and traveled to the land
of Britannia, introducing Christianity to England, long before Rome. Quick,
another pinch of salt. Here's an actual fact though, Elizabeth the 1st actually
stated the establishment, and thus ownership,of the Christian religion happened in her Kingdom, in her usual subtle
style. But, in truth, there's no telling when Celtic-Christianity began in the
Isles, it was a long time before the Tudors, with a gradual conversion of the
Pagan Anglo-Saxons happening much earlier, after and during the Roman period. Taking
in the Vikings on the way.
Could something startlingly profound have occurred at
Glastonbury, in Biblical times? Or some sacred artefact made it's way to the
Tor, carried by God knows who, in some unreported exodus? The cultural
connections may seem improbable, but archaeology says otherwise, with
commercial activity between the West Country and Cornwall, and the
Mediterranean and North Africa. A popular trip, by all accounts.
Type'Where did Joseph of Arimathea die?' into
Google, and the result might surprise you.
The 'Sacred Glastonbury Hawthorn' is said to have grown from
Joseph's wooden stick, after he plunged it into the honestly named ' Wearyall
Hill' . There's a whiff of Gandalf about it, and the nearby Abbey ruins are a
wonder. More like the high Elven architecture of LotR's or Elder Scrolls (very
high, ancient, ghostly). But, that would have been a long time after Joseph
planted his stick in the fertile lands of Avalon.
The original stone builders, of around 700AD, left many
puzzles and enigmas, enough to charm an inquisitive eye. For later on, around920AD, a very enthusiastic local boy, the
future St.Dunstan, marvelled at the mastery of craft, and pondered who must
have built such wonders? The ruins were occupied by a group of Irish Monks, who
would look like Jedi's to our eyes, but Dunstan saw Benedictine Monastic Life
(planting, honey, herbs, no women) and decided to roll it out across the
country, bit by bit. But first, he set a task to rebuild the ruins (with the
help of a few hundred Norman stone chippers), and elevated Glastonbury Abbey to
International status, with pilgrims travelling to marvel at the heavenly
delights and soak up some of the greenest and most pleasant land in all the
Kingdom.
The Ruins of Glastonbury Abbey
St.Dunstan and the Devil
St.Dunstan sounds like quite a cool guy, as well as a bit of
a survivor. He was beaten and thrown in a poop pit, but miraculously survived
the ordeal and ensuing infection(s), thanks to the medicinal care of the monks
at the Abbey. Later, he had bigger foes to deal with, when the Devil popped by
his silver smithy (also in the ruins), but Dunstan threw him out by the snout,
using his 'iron tongs'.
Is there more to the Dunstan vs. the Devil story? Did he
create something strange and marvellous in his crucible? What other experiments
did he conduct? Enough to get him on a hit list and thought of as a witch.
In folklore and the occult, Iron is utilised as a defence
against dark magic, like iron nails in witch bottles and horse shoes above
doors and archways. It has protective qualities, basically, but its presence in
the spring water around Glastonbury causes the naturally delicate local sandstone
to harden, considerably, over time. It makes tough rock.
Mixing base metals and the science behind purification was
often seen as Alchemy, which brings me to John Dee, a thousand years later.
John Dee, Edward Kelley and the mysterious 'red earth'.
John Dee was the astrologer to Elizabeth 1st, and was
instrumental in her rise and eventual coronation in 1559. Her predecessor, Mary
Queen of Scots, was absolutely convinced that Dee and Liz were cooking up
witchcraft to remove her from power. They succeeded, but it may not have
involved 'actual' witchcraft. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
No Eye of Newt or Broomsticks, instead Dee sought power and
instruction from the sky. He had a scientific interest in the movement of the
planets, stars and their influence on the people of the Earth, recently
re-established as being round shaped(!). Dee's astrology charts are the stuff
of legend, and his predictions and influence are still felt today. Later, Dee became
heavily involved with known forger Edward Kelley, who acted as a seer for Dee
during his very creepy sounding scrying sessions*.
Dee lost favour with the
Queen, and his peers were teetering on the edge of the Age of Discovery, so his
arcane rituals and Enochian WhatsApp buddies looked like what they were...
black magic. Dee may have stated he was Christian, to save his neck, but there
was some whiffy stuff going on, at Mortlake back invery uncertain times.
*Divination and séance, sometimes using Dee's famous Aztec
Obsidian Mirror.
When X-Rayed, Henry Gillard Glindoni's painting of Liz 1st and Dee, reveals a darker side to 'Alchemy'.
Later, Dee's foolhardy mission to turn lead into gold proved
his undoing. It's the most famous part of his life, and gets used over and
over, and it's all based on Edward Kelley's 'Magic Soil', which HE said was
found in the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey (ruined again!!). Dee said otherwise,
but I like the Glasto connection. The 'red soil' was instrumental, a vital
component, in the lead to gold ritual, with some suggesting it may have been an
active component of the 'soil' that caused a discolouring of mercury, it's own
strange fluid quality adding to the impression of the other-worldly.
Glastonbury certainly feels like the sort of place something
profound may have been secreted, but we may never know. Unless I include it in
the game. ;-)
The Tor - Blessed Richard Whiting
A few years before Edward Kelley turned up hunting for
Enochian soil samples, a very grisly fate befell the Abbey at Glastonbury.
Henry the VIII's vicious murder and destruction of the monastic system reduced
the buildings to hollow shells, robbing them of their abundant treasures, selling
off everything from the finery to the wooden doors, for firewood.
One such treasure is rumoured to be the Holy Grail. There,
I've said it. How did it get to Glasto? See Joseph of Arimathea, above. If the
Grail did exist, then travelled to Somerset and was exhibited by the monks as
part of a very alluring reliquary of cool things, it must have been stolen by
Henry's brutes?
" Alas! for such hopes; the tyrant Tudor, taking advantage of the
palpable declension of the inmates from their first love, levelled them with
the ground, and left the country shorn of such glorious fanes as arose over the
conquerors at Battle, or the tombs of the mighty dead at Glastonbury."
The thing is, the Abbey at Glastonbury had
two years warning. Dissolution of the Monasteries (asset stripping and
destroying the churches) did not happen overnight. The guy in charge of
Glastonbury, at the time, was Abbot Richard Whiting. He was fully aware that
the soldiers were coming, and the Abbey was running out of time.
“Tidings have reached me, my child, that I must be taken to London, there
to answer to certain treasons of which they falsely accuse me; the bolt may
fall at any moment, and I have to discharge two duties, the first towards
thee.”
“Now touch the rose which thou
seest in the carving of the cornice there, the fourth rose in order from the
door, and the third from the floor.”
The wainscotting of the room was
divided into small squares; in each one a rose—S. Joseph’s rose—formed the
centre.
“The third and the fourth, canst
thou remember?”
“Third from the floor, fourth
from the door.”
“Now press the centre of the bud
sharply with thy thumb.”
Cuthbert did so, and a bookcase,
which seemed a fixture in the wall, and which none could have suspected to have
been aught but a fixture, flew
open in the manner of a door, and revealed a flight of circular steps, such
steps as we see in old towers to this day."
So, that's two years to hide all sorts of
treasures, anywhere they liked. There's that lovely tower, on the Tor, for
starters.
“My son,” said the Abbot “I am about to reveal to thee a mystery which
thou alone mayest share, until the friend I have mentioned seeks thee, and
presents theewith this ring, which thou now seest
on my finger; it will not be till I am gone.”
The Church to St.Michael on the Tor is very striking and stops Glastonbury
being a town with a bump, and elevates the Tor to quite a status. The tourists
flock here, in abundance. Good for them, it's lovely, but the tower was the
place of Richard Whiting's gory death, along with two 'conspirators'.
After being accused of 'Robbing the Church at
Glastonbury' (what did that mean?!)
he was a doomed man. He was very elderly too.
"The next day, Saturday, 15 November, he
was taken to Glastonbury with two of his monks, John Thorne and Roger James,
where all three were fastened upon hurdles and dragged by horses to the top of
Glastonbury Tor which overlooks the town. Here they were hung, drawn and
quartered, with Whiting's head being fastened over the west gate of the now
deserted abbey and his limbs exposed at Wells, Bath, Ilchester and Bridgwater."
"...from thence be drawn on the morrow, upon a hurdle,
to the summit of Glastonbury Tor, that all men far and wide may witness the
royal justice, where you are to be hanged by the neck, but not until you are
dead, for while you are still living, your bodies are to be taken down, yourbowels torn out and burnt before your faces; your heads
are then to be cut off, and your bodies divided, each into four quarters, to be
at the King’s disposal..."
- The Last Abbot of Glastonbury - A Tale of
the Dissolution of the Monasteries
What was the purpose or gain to such a public
and grisly act? Power? Threat? Most definitely Henry's plan to show HIS Kingdom
that there is no God, except him. His methods were shabby and selfish, but the
atmosphere in the Vale has returned to a green, timeless idyll. Like some
modern day Avalon.
Avalon -
Avalon is not a mythical place. It's real. I know this,
because the official maps of Glastonbury say it lies just North of the Tor. This map shows the 'of' and 'Ava', as well as intriging sites around the Tor, including the game setting, Wick Hollow Hall.
Firstly, what does Avalon mean? It's based on ancient
Breton/Welsh, and literally means the Isle of Apple Trees, or words to that
effect, as derived from Common
Celtic *abalnā, literally "fruit-bearing(thing)".
Plentiful fruit and abandoned apples were observed through history by several
witnesses who recorded their impressions for us to read. Isle of Apples seems
to fit nicely, as there are still lots of small orchards, dotted about the Somerset
levels, visible from the Tor. Thing is, the apples arrived quite a lot later,
after the wet marshes were drained and turned into super fertile farm fields
known as Summerland Meadows.
There is another name, that gets mentioned, and is visible
on the old maps of the town and tor (top left of illus). Deep breath...
Ynys Wydryn
My Welsh is awful, but based on a few successes, I think you
pronounce it 'Innis Widrin'.
I'm guessing that's a private property, on the map, named 'Ynyswytryn',
rather than an ancient leftover, but it is still there, nonetheless.
The name applies mostly to the Tor, obviously, as it would
have been the most prominent hill, among a few others, in the otherwise flat
bowl of the Somerset Levels. Before they were drained, the water level often
rose to make the Tor a spectacular island, seeming to rise above the very still
waters, and inspired a few LotR's Kingdoms. ;-)
Avalon - Glastonbury Tor - Artists Impression! ;-)
Pseudoscience -
Take your pick! Glastonbury's book shops and magic emporiums
reflect the Glastonbury of now, with a strong whiff of a very mixed up past.
Perhaps it's the incense sticks, but the place does feel pretty funky, with
tacky import tat (usually dragons) sitting next to Aleister Crowley books, set
in what can only be described as a psychics boudoir.
The most popular or noticeable themes can be found in
Glastonbury at any time, and include:
Earth Mother -
The Tor hill as a massive pregnant belly,
with the Chalice Well as the divine outpouring of vitae. The area is very
green, plentiful and fruitful, and the water from the well is iron rich,
hardening the local geology and influencing the flora.
Ley Lines -
Invisible energy lines stretch out, in all
directions from the Tor, to all corners of the globe. Sacred sites, temples and
monuments are found along the lines, suggesting some unconscious connection to
the Earth's magnetic forces (like Pigeons), or there are powerful forces
waiting to be tapped, like Tesla.
Either way, I like Ley Lines, blame Children
of the Stones, and I think they'll make good exploring puzzles, and map based
activities.
A Gateway to Avalon -
Lots of local art, mostly available
shrink wrapped on the high street, depicts the Tor and Tower as a far away
kingdom, reachable only through spiritual awakening, a vegan diet and the
ingestion of a lot of weird brews and substances. Uh huh.
I'm not knocking it, I actually like the whole experience,
(hog)warts and all. It attracts a constant flow of tourists, with the Chalice
Well, The Tor and the Abbey Ruins being the main attractions. The game location
is also an 'attraction'. Wick Hollow Hall, does not appear on maps, but has
been cheated into the one included:
The setting for Glastonbury - Waking Dream of Avalon
Waking Dream of Avalon, is
Wick Hollow Hall. It's a house that was never a home. Hidden from view, by
large estate trees. The building is a 16thC curio, with no records of who built
it, when and why. The house and gardens have been recently restored, to a very
high standard, for opening to the general public. But, that was a couple of
years ago. Sadly Wick Hollow remains empty and closed. Why? There's something
wrong with the place, and not just the buildings, the entire estate feels 'not
right', an uncanny sensation, hence the subtitle 'Waking Dream of Avalon'.
Ancient experiments into alchemy, the heavens and the unknown have left a
mortal scar on the landscape, you cannot see, but you can feel it.The natural forces that control the earth,
the weather and the elements must be healed. The broken earth idea is nice, for
a big landscape game, and opens up opportunities to wonder...
"What would an angry Elemental Enochian look like?"
So, the dangers thought up between now and later may be
quite frightful, and on biblical proportions. This is something we can achieve
thanks to a move into 3D. The effects, assets and live content are offering
plenty of ideas to change, expand or go off. But 7 plagues, lightning storms,
tornadoes and fiery figures appeals. Edward Kelly, John Dee's psychic scryer,
described the figures he saw in quite a terrifying way, so there's going to be
a flipside to the sunny idyll of Wick Hollow.
Using a variety of techniques, from divination with rods,
crystals and twigs, to high tech ground penetrating radar and Magnetometry,
your task will be simple:
Restore the Vale of Avalon
To do so will mean practising
the esoteric arts of the alchemists, from dark ceremonies to healing and
restoration. Eventually, you will come to realise that there really are more
things in heaven and earth...
Finding and scanning real world objects is something I have
been doing a lot of lately, so I'm looking forward to capturing some funky
stone work from around Cornwall, to dress up the gardens and plinths. Also, a
few interesting and esoteric tombstones would look nice in the soon-to-be
expanded graveyard. The standing stones, that make up the Myrdin Stone Circle,
are actually pinched from Cornwall, but I won't say where!
So far, several planters,
pots, statues and 4000 year old megaliths will be re-attributed to the project too, hence all
the 'Stones' markers on the mock-up map.
Captured scenery - Glastonbury - Work in Progress
Anyway, they are all fun ideas, and make this
Work-in-Progress weekender a fun project. It's been productive to share some
thoughts and ideas, and the artwork is quite pretty. Definitely something for
us to look into this Winter, production-wise, when a bit of virtual Sun God
will be very much appreciated.
Back to the job at hand, and certainly lots to think about.
